American History

» pink101 - Progressive Evolution

In response to Property Rights posted by JohnCrandall:
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Well, you're both probably correct in that I see a definite line that continues throughout history.
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I do see a connection between the mind set of slave owners and others. Many of our employment laws have dealt with "master/slave" relationships. Of course there's a great difference between owning people and owning real estate.
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But, my comments were also in connection with capitalism. So, it might be good to see the connection around the world today.
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I've been highly impressed by Ray Raphael's book. He makes some excellent points.
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The American Revolution was fought to obtain rights for white males--farmers for the most part--who owned property; not for blacks, women, children, or the property-less. But, those white male farmers set the example that gave the others the models necessary for them to fight for their rights. We need to understand that society is in a state of a progressive evolution toward a more liberal way of life for everyone. Or should I say a "more liberated" way of life?
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The scope of property rights has diminished as the scope of human rights has increased. I'm sure you've all noticed.
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-- posted by pink101

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» Brian Tubbs - The Line that Pink Sees

In response to Progressive Evolution posted by pink101:

Well, you're both probably correct in that I see a definite line that continues throughout history.

Yup, and your perception keeps coming up again and again.

I do see a connection between the mind set of slave owners and others. Many of our employment laws have dealt with "master/slave" relationships.

The CONNECTION would be greed. To put a spiritual point on it, sinful greed.

Of course there's a great difference between owning people and owning real estate.

Sadly, some southern slave owners of the past did NOT see this difference.

But, my comments were also in connection with capitalism. So, it might be good to see the connection around the world today.

It's clear that you equate capitalism with greed. I see greed as a human impulse that is given much opportunity with capitalism, but that is also present in other economic models as well.

I've been highly impressed by Ray Raphael's book. He makes some excellent points.

Yes. He does make a few excellent points. And he also misses some points too.

The American Revolution was fought to obtain rights for white males--farmers for the most part--who owned property; not for blacks, women, children, or the property-less.

Wrong. This is a typical, superficial, liberal spin on the war. And it's flat out wrong!

Read Thomas G. West's Vindicating the Founders for a good counter-point to Raphael's anti-Founding Fathers interpretation of the period.

But, those white male farmers set the example that gave the others the models necessary for them to fight for their rights.

This was not an accident. The white male farmers, lawyers, and property owners that you and Raphael are too quick to superficially judge KNEW what they were doing in setting up these principles and laying out these precedents. They KNEW they were articulating the principles which would eliminate slavery. Abraham Lincoln picked up on this. Martin Luther King picked up on this. It's a shame Raphael and you can't.

We need to understand that society is in a state of a progressive evolution toward a more liberal way of life for everyone. Or should I say a "more liberated" way of life?

Typical left-wing "progressive" propaganda. Yes, there's some truth to it, but it's far too simplistic. And it has that "gag me" reflex feel to it. There are many ways in which society has NOT progressed! Many ways.

The scope of property rights has diminished as the scope of human rights has increased. I'm sure you've all noticed.

What!? No offense, but that's just BS. Property rights are an integral part of human rights. Those societies which have rejected property rights and/or lessened property rights have also seen a lessening of civil rights.

And don't throw slavery in my face here. If anything, slavery supports my premise. In most slave-based societies, what you have is more MERCANTILISM than capitalism. In fact, the early to mid 1800s Deep South could be described as a feudalistic, mercantile society MUCH MORE SO than a capitalist society.

It's a liberal lie to call what the Deep South was doing "capitalist." You had a select few at the top benefiting from a limited economy. It was a pyramid economy. That's not capitalism. Again, contrary to the liberal lie.

Property rights work best when they are available to all. If everyone, regardless of race, creed, color, gender, etc. is able to own property, the system works in a way that everyone has an opportunity to succeed. That was NOT the case in the antebellum Deep South.

So, Pink, stop drawing the line between antebellum slavery and modern conservatives calling for property rights and supporting the free market. It's offensive and it's BS.

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» pink101 - The Line that Pink Sees

In response to The Line that Pink Sees posted by BrianTubbs:

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Come on, Brian. You have unfairly distorted some of my comments and taken others to an extreme I never even implied.
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That surprises me about you. I expected you to be a bit more objective.
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-- posted by pink101

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» Brian Tubbs - The Line that Pink Sees

In response to The Line that Pink Sees posted by pink101:

Ha. "Objective." I like it. Good one. Touche.

So, tell me then, where have I misunderstood you?

And do you see that what the antebellum Deep South was doing is really NOT a great example of capitalism? That slavery is not the kind of capitalism that true free market conservatives support. Do you see that?

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» Brian Tubbs - Review of Zinn and Raphael

I've submitted this before in other threads. But for John and/or others new to the discussions Pink and I have concerning the American Revolution...

Pink enjoys reading historians Howard Zinn and Ray Raphael. Raphael is a protege of Zinn. These two authors claim to provide a common person's perspective on American history. In Raphael's case, he has focused on the American Revolution and founding era.

Here is a good article written about Zinn and Raphael - and a third author I'm not as familiar with. The snippets are Zinn and Raphael, however, are excellent.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/cr...

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» Brian Tubbs - Great Book

Those interested in a more positive - and, yes, CORRECT - view of America's founding should read the book referenced at the following site...

http://www.vindicatingthefounders.com/

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» pink101 - Review of Zinn and Raphael

In response to Review of Zinn and Raphael posted by BrianTubbs:

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Actually, I like to read any historian as long as they write well and have good source references.
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I'm almost through with David Hackett Fischer's book. I think he's pretty good. I like the concise way he highlights each historical aspect.
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I read a lot of books so I can't read every author that might be recommended. When Raphael makes a statement, I like to check out his reference. He does pretty good, if you ask me.
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-- posted by pink101

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» Brian Tubbs - Review of Zinn and Raphael

In response to Review of Zinn and Raphael posted by pink101:

I haven't yet read David Hackett Fisher's Liberty and Freedom. I plan to read Fisher's Washington's Crossing, which is regarded as one of the best books on the Revolutionary War. It's one of those books staring at me from my to-be-read list.

If you like to read "any historian as long as they write well and have good source references," then why have you not read David McCullough? Is it because McCullough is a centrist who sees America in a positive light - and, for that, has been critcized by the likes of Zinn and Raphael?

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» pink101 - Review of Zinn and Raphael

In response to Review of Zinn and Raphael posted by BrianTubbs:
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McCullough is laying on my daughter's coffee table right now. He'll appear at my place in good time.
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I have too many books in the hopper to jump there now.
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So many books and so little time.
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We can get along if you'll stop kicking me in the shins.
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-- posted by pink101

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» Brian Tubbs - Review of Zinn and Raphael

In response to Review of Zinn and Raphael posted by pink101:

I'm not kicking you in the shins. I'm jabbing you in the ribs.

I hear you on the stack of books ready to be read. That's my problem.

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