American History

» Brian Tubbs - Agenda & Reality

Well, we see how a person's agenda can affect their understanding of reality.

That is PRECISELY what I have been thinking about YOU

I am sure that your interpretations are wrong.

This either means you have misunderstood my interpretations or that you have a very distorted and/or incomplete view of the American founding

The way you make it look would cause us to believe that the Founders were Evangelicals out to prove something about God.

I'm sorry to get testy, but I get frustrated when I have to repeat myself over and over - and people CONTINUE to misunderstand me or misstate my positions. Let me say it again. Read this slowly if you have to...

Not all the Founding Fathers were Christian. And CERTAINLY not all of them were evangelicals. In fact, most of the Founders wouldn't have appreciated or accepted that term "evangelical."

Moreover, the Founding Fathers did not - repeat NOT - set the USA up to be an officially evangelical nation with an evangelical or Christian government.

Okay? With me?

I am NOT saying that the "Founders were Evangelicals." Okay?

I WOULD say, however, that ALL of the signers of the Declaration of Independence professed a belief in God. ALL OF THEM!

And...that MOST of them would have described themselves not only as Deists or monotheists, but specifically as "Christians."

My evidence for this their own writings and church affiliations.

In other words, the founding of America was all about proving the existence of God as far as you're concerned.

Once again, you either REFUSE to really engage what I'm saying or you are clueless about what I'm saying. I did NOT say that the founding of America was "all about proving the existence of God." I never said that. Never!!!!!

Rather, the Founders all BELIEVED in God and held God to be the source of our unalienable rights. THAT is what I've been saying - and I stand by that.

And John F. Kennedy agrees with my interpretation (and that of the Founders). It was JFK (one of your heroes, I believe) who said: "The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."

So, Pink, do you agree or disagree with JFK?

Harry Truman echoed a similar sentiment in 1949: "We believe that all men are created equal, because they are created in the image of God."

It just doesn't work when it's put in the context of the American Revolution and the reason why Jefferson wrote the Declaration in the first place--it was all about personal sovereignty and the inalienable/unalienable rights.

The "it" you refer to is the STRAW MAN you've built up. You've misconstrued and distorted my position - and pushed it to an extreme.

Pink, there's no way to say this w/o sounding boastful, so I'll just say it. I've studied the founding era of the United States thoroughly for the last 15-20 years. I have a pretty good idea about the reasons Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence and how the Founders understood "sovereignty" and "unalienable/inalienable rights."

It is what we have come to know as self determination.

With THAT sentence, you're starting to veer back toward our point of agreement.

The purpose of the reference to the Creator as the one that endowed those rights is all about the fact that the rights exist prior to society's influence. I don't see how you can get that so wrong.

You are right - but not FULLY right. In other words, it's like saying the name of our President is "George W." Well, yes, but it's really "George W. BUSH."

YES, the reference to the Creator illustrates that our RIGHTS precede the formation of government and the "influence of society." You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Bravo. Well said. But...

The reference to our Creator ALSO points to the issue of AUTHORITY! In other words, our rights are absolute and uncontested not simply because they precede government, but because they come from GOD!

The only explanation I can come up with for your position is that you are working on an agenda as your explanation is tangent from the Declaration itself.

That is my assessment of your position - or more to the point, your secularist agenda and anti-organized religion bias prevents you from seeing the full picture of the American founding.

Can you give me any academic references in support of your position?

Here we go...what do you mean by "academic"? And do my sources all have to be left of center for you to view them as credible? Will you take Bill Bennett, Dinesh D'Souza, Lynne Cheney, et al as credible? They are all credentialed academics, but they are also conservative - so you will probably rule them out right away. Such a dismissal of these and others by you will only frustrate me - anger me, in fact. So, I'd rather not go there.